"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
09/29/2016 at 09:46 • Filed to: None
11
34|
"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
09/29/2016 at 09:46 • Filed to: None | 11
| 34 |
You may have heard about how the police can pull you over and - if they find cash on you - take it from you and keep it. This wonderful thing is called “Civil Forfeiture” and most people have no idea how it works or how widespread it really is.
Civil Forfeiture has been getting more attention lately and has been featured on shows like John Oliver’s as well as more mainstream news outlets. But the problem has been around for years. It’s just that law enforcement has ramped it up since 9/11.
It goes like this: You’re driving somewhere and you have a lot of cash on you. Say you are going to buy a car with cash. The police pull you over, find the money and they take it. You want it back? You have to litigate the matter (i.e., hire an attorney and spend ton of time and money) and then you have to prove the money was not the product of criminal activity.
Notice that: YOU have to prove it. Not the other way around. And this problem is much bigger than most people realize. So in this week’s podcast I talk about how it works, how big the problem is and how it could be very easily fixed. That is, if the politicians wanted to fix it. Which they don’t.
This week’s audio:
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
And video:
And the pic at the top was taken at the Hickory Motor Speedway, the track where Bobby Isaac got his start. I was there to help film a documentary for NASCAR. As they say: Stay tuned for details.
Follow me on Twitter: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
Hear my podcast on iTunes: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
Steve Lehto has been practicing law for 24 years, almost exclusively in consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! He wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .
This website may supply general information about the law but it is for informational purposes only. This does not create an attorney-client relationship and is not meant to constitute legal advice, so the good news is we’re not billing you by the hour for reading this. The bad news is that you shouldn’t act upon any of the information without consulting a qualified professional attorney who will, probably, bill you by the hour.
Wil Haginen
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 09:56 |
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How is this not a blatant violation of the Fourth Amendment?!
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SteveLehto
> Wil Haginen
09/29/2016 at 10:06 |
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You can litigate that too. But they willl explain what their probably cause was and then you have to litigate the CF.
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Wil Haginen
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 10:09 |
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FUCK that makes me so angry!
TheHondaBro
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 10:14 |
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But it’s totally okay to drive with two weapons of mass destruction?
Nothing
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 10:29 |
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That question at the border crossing into Canada always made me chuckle, but I knew it was quite serious. “Do you have any tobbaco, alcohol, firearms, or large sums of cash. $10,000 or more?” I crossed the border enough that the second question was “Did you marry that girl yet?”
Regardless, I’ve seen enough at the border to make me leary. More than 1 person I know essentially had their car strip searched at the border crossing. Nothing elicit was found, but then it’s the civilian’s job to get their car back together and out of the search area.
fintail
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 10:36 |
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And law and order drones wonder why respect for the segment has vanished.
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SteveLehto
> Nothing
09/29/2016 at 10:37 |
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Leaving the country with $10K in cash is another problem. You need to declare it or, if they find it and you didn’t, they will take it. There is a Federal statute on that one. (Not saying it’s right - just letting you know it is there).
Mid Engine
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 10:39 |
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Happened to me 20 years ago in Cupertino, I was pulled over for suspected DUI ( I was stone cold sober) and they made me do the roadside aerobics exercise. They then parked me in the back seat of the cop car while they went through my belongings. The two cops divvied up the contents of my wallet while I sat there in disbelief. I have a very strong suspicion the $500 they took from me was for their own use. As Steve points out there’s not much you can do and proving I had the cash on me, and they stole it, is damned near impossible. So yeah, fuck the cops.
random001
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 10:53 |
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Good lord, that is one messed up law...
I just recently did this, too. I sold a car (stupid me, I loved that car) and was paid in cash. Driving around with $11k in my pocket was nerve racking for other reasons, but that this could have happened.
Would it have changed things that I had a dated and signed bill of sale, etc.?
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SteveLehto
> random001
09/29/2016 at 11:00 |
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It would help. But they could make you take them to court to get the money back. Which would cost you more than $11,000. Funny how that works.
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random001
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 11:05 |
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That is such a broken system.
AkursedX
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 11:53 |
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Just a little addendum on this: If you are travelling INTO OR OUT OF the USA, with cash or other monetary instruments in excess of 10K, you need to declare it and file a FinCEN 105. And make sure to declare the full amount as a discrepancy between the form and a physical verification can also result in seizure.
Oh, and you can’t divy up your funds between you and your family/friends/random strangers to get under the 10k mark. That is referred to as ‘Structuring’ and will also result in seizure.
Garrett Davis
> TheHondaBro
09/29/2016 at 12:18 |
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More like weapons of mass seduction .
I should get into the porn screen writing business...
CaptDale - is secretly British
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 12:19 |
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But not all states have civil forfeiture where they can (see chart)
Standards of proof in state forfeiture laws
Source: Institute for Justice
[32]
Note: “9" means most protection for citizens
Also, wouldn’t you have to tell them you have money on you (which you shouldn’t) and they would have to have reasonable suspicion to search your vehicle?
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Mid Engine
> Nothing
09/29/2016 at 12:26 |
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I imported a car when I moved from Canada to the U.S. seven years ago. I dutifully filled out ALL the paperwork and triple checked to make sure everything was good to go. When I got to the B.C./Washington border I pulled in and told them I was importing the car, they then directed me to an area to park the car and come inside. I presented the paperwork and they looked through it quickly, but was told to have a seat while they go through everything thoroughly. Oh, and please give us your keys for the car. Two hours later I was told I could go, what they didn’t tell me was they took the entire car apart. To their credit they did an admirable job re-assembling it, but I found tell tale signs they had literally taken the car apart. Impressive.
jimz
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 12:36 |
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the problem with getting these laws changed/eliminated is that the public at large has to agitate for change, and unfortunately we’ve been conditioned by decades of media to believe that if the police are talking to you for any reason, you
must
be guilty of something. Pop culture is complicit; “buddy cop” films like
48 Hours,
the
Lethal Weapon
series, etc. have drilled into the public’s mind that the police can do whatever it takes, break whatever laws they need to, and steamroll over whoever they need to so long as they
get the bad guy.
That plus the post-9/11 expectation that anyone with a badge is due hero worship means we’re apathetic at best, and don’t care that no one is watching the watchers. So long as we work under the belief that “it won’t happen to me, that’s just for those people...”
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jimz
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 12:37 |
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oh, and FYI there was a “glitch” at about 9:33 into the podcast, at least the one via iTunes. It sounded like it might have lost a few seconds of audio.
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SteveLehto
> CaptDale - is secretly British
09/29/2016 at 12:37 |
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Those are the state statutes. There are still federal statutes that allow the seizures (and many of the complaints you hear about are the ones made when the seizure is done under Federal law).
Why would you have to tell them? If they search, they can find it without being told. Obviously, if you tell them, it will make it easier for them. But yes, they ought to have a basis for the search but that is beside the point: All of this has to be litigated at YOUR cost, win or lose.
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SteveLehto
> jimz
09/29/2016 at 12:42 |
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Weird. It’s in the podcast where I uploaded it too. Must have glitched in the upload process. Sorry (as far as I can tell, that’s the first time I’ve ever had that happen!)
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SteveLehto
> jimz
09/29/2016 at 12:44 |
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And couple that with 1) the gov’t profits and 2) so few people are affected that no one cares until it happens to them.
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jimz
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 12:45 |
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no worries. I actually listened to it twice to make sure while I was coming to the realization I should probably forget about getting to work today. All of the reasonable routes from SCS to Dearborn were flooded; I sat for 20 minutes atop the I-94 overpass above 75.
and it’s still raining down there.
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Nothing
> Mid Engine
09/29/2016 at 12:49 |
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Running tobacco across the border was a big deal where I lived. There is an Indian reservation on one side of the border, so there was a high amount of tax free trafficking to the Canadian side. It was not uncommon to see cars torn apart at the border.
Standard_Deviation
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 12:52 |
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Similar problems in Canada too. Our police don’t limit themselves to taking cash. According to a Globe and Mail article, BC cops ceased a Ferrari over a traffic violation and in several cases, landlords’ buildings were ceased because tenants were alleged to have sold drugs from the units they were renting.
The good folks at the Canadian Constitution Foundation are fighting against Civil Forfeiture in Canada, but it’s an uphill battle.
http://theccf.ca/civilforfeiture/
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Mid Engine
> Nothing
09/29/2016 at 13:05 |
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Yup, although at least here in Washington tobacco costs the same or more than it does in B.C. When I lived in Montreal the natives were sneaking smokes into Canada, not the other way around. To this day I’m not sure what the hell they were looking for, but they’re damned good at disassembling cars. For what it’s worth the car was a 2001 Acura 3.2 CL type S.
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CaptDale - is secretly British
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 14:00 |
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That is so broken. Thanks for the insight.
BorkBorkBjork
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 14:44 |
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Have there been cases of business owners on their way to deposit cash at the bank having their revenue stolen from their bank deposit bags? Seems like the existing law would allow police to take that money as well, and force “proof of innocence” onto the business owner.
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SteveLehto
> BorkBorkBjork
09/29/2016 at 14:45 |
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I wouldn’t be surprised but I have not seen that specifically.
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BorkBorkBjork
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 14:50 |
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Then who’s to say they can’t just pull over an armored car and help themselves to the contents? Guess it just hasn’t happened yet.
Great podcast by the way, this is an excellent topic that I have wanted to know more about for a while.
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SteveLehto
> BorkBorkBjork
09/29/2016 at 17:25 |
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Give ‘em time; I’m sure some LEO agency out there will try it.
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BorkBorkBjork
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 17:48 |
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The only way this will get fixed is if some saintly police officer starts pulling over judges and legislators and stealing their cash.
Where are you, knight in shining armor?
TahoeSTi
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 18:03 |
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This is what happens when the government’s checks and balances fail. We need to stop electing people that think the government knows best for us. We continue to give up rights for “safety” and yet never feel any safer. It has to stop it’s starting to feel like the terrorists and wackos are winning.
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jimz
> SteveLehto
09/29/2016 at 20:45 |
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oh my god it’s raining again
the Clinton River is very angry right now. this was a park:
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jimz
> TahoeSTi
09/29/2016 at 20:50 |
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that’s not why this is happening. this is happening because a bunch of old white people have bought into the “law and order” mindset, and think things like “throw the book at ‘em no matter what” and “if the police are talking to you you’re obviously guilty.” they’re happy with that so long as it doesn’t affect them, but if one of their own precious children gets into legal trouble they’ll move heaven and earth to bail them out.
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TahoeSTi
> jimz
09/30/2016 at 11:56 |
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Those “old white people”, are what broke our checks and balances. The justices of the supreme court have been grabbing for more power since the beginning. The president’s sign more and more executive orders, and congress and the senate continue to put misleading names on bills and stuffing them full of side items and special earmarks. This is how this came to be. We need to stop electing people who just want to grab power. Our presidential candidates talk like when they get to office they’ll be king or queen, all the shit they promise is supposed to come from the house. The systems fucked because we the people dont know how it works, so we elect people who are trying to break it.